Christian MGTOWs: What Do You Want?

I’ve been contemplating this a bit. If possible, I am looking for some serious discussion about this and feedback as I am very, very interested in people’s thoughtful answers.

If necessary, allow me to explain where I’m coming from with the question. Obviously, I identify a great deal with the MGTOW movement and school of thought as well as MRAs and the issues they confront. Like many Christian MGTOWs, I’m sick and tired of what we have and don’t have in churches. We get “Men Step Up” or other accountability groups that are willfully ignorant of men’s realities, lack any sort of restorative and protective spirit towards men, and consequently, just don’t come across like they even care about the men to whom they “minister.” It’s the boot camp school of thought at best, and at worst, it’s a loveless demonization, condemnation, and an atmosphere that reduces men to performance objects (in great part, of course, for women).

I complain and protest it with no intention of quitting doing so. The other thing I do is this: produce something like what I want to see. Sometimes a man or woman needs a rebuke or boot camp, as it were. I often say–though it’s FAR too simple of a way to illustrate this overall, but may convey the imagery–it looks like men get almost nothing but “boot camp,” with women getting nothing but the “nurse’s office” (and major softball when it comes to their sins by comparison).

Yes, I’m sick and tired of real attention and real ministries and real responses to problems with an understanding, responsive, gentle, protective, supportive spirit seeming to go almost exclusively to women. If I’m talking to MRA/MGTOW crowds, this needs no introduction.

But once again, then: what do you want? Now that you have left churches and mainstream society for very understandable reasons, what do you want to proceed to build? My answer is found all over this blog as a starter–what’s yours?

I can see that MGTOWs want to be heard. Briefly, I would plug that it tests the faith to remember that God hears when no one else does, cares when no one else cares, and the world is no match for His power. Keeping all that in mind, I pray that Christian MGTOWs will continue to turn to the Lord.

How illustrative could you get as far as what you would like churches to look like as opposed to what they are now?

I don’t have a one-track mind with men’s rights in Christianity, so my primary interest is the church and ALL of Scripture’s principles materializing in it. As far as the church, then:

*If you were to be heard, what would you tell your local church, EXACTLY, what you would like to see them do?

*In the spirit of the saying “if you want something done, you’ve got to do it yourself,” if you’ve given up on churches, what would you like to do yourself while existing churches prove incurable?

*What would you like to see become of Christian MGTOWs in terms of building what you want to have? How will you influence it to go in that direction?

It’s no question that nature abhors a vacuum. Identifying a problem is the unavoidable first step toward making a solution. With MGTOWs being exhaustively descriptive about what they don’t want, where I see most of the discussion leaving things is with a vacuum. Yes, I understand that that’s kind of the point of “Going their own way” to leave it open-ended for the individual. For those of us who believe in Scripture’s teachings, and of course the overall implications of the problems of things today, I am greatly interested in both ideological and vivid descriptions of action that illustrate what Christian MGTOWs desire and a place where they could feel at home.

One thing I want to see is some more horsepower coming from women in the way so much tends to be consumed by women. For example, I want to see women say “Eek! Abused men don’t have any DV resources! Let’s act and organize to change that!” And the reason is because women do so to such great extent for themselves and men’s donated energies and resources have so much to do with the culture’s responsiveness to them. Suffice it to say, it’s important for the energy flow to be a two-way street more than it is, if only for men to have more left over for their own gender. But I believe in spiritual family being alive and active between genders.

In any case, please, your thoughts!

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15 Comments

  1. As an MRA I too have asked myself this question and as I look around what I see is all too many ‘christian-lite’ men simply abandon the Church altogether. You use the analogy of ‘boot camp’ for some men’s groups in Churches but rarely do I see any such groups have a central ‘aim’, and objective, which is either manly or saintly.

    Christ is the Model of Man. He became one and showed how to be one. I did not see him organise His disciples into a charity group. I did not see him sitting them down and bemoaning the Roman occupation. I did see Him focus their whole attention on God above. Not on Himself alone. Not on the society around them.

    That is what MRAs need. A recognition by themselves that they, the individual man, is made in the Image and Likeness. They need to know that they are ‘out of focus’, distracted by the day to day ‘stuff’. That focus has to be brought out of the ‘fuxxy’ and into sharp relief.

    Every MGTOW needs to walk with God at his side. He needs to walk the talk. That is, when he is not in sole communion with God. The ‘day to day stuff’ has to be informed and enlightened by God’s light – Christ.

    First and foremost he has to be an individual man. Hense the very idea of MGTOW has some merit but it has to be informed by a solid moral base. That base cannot be one that has thrown out morality or even watered it down. The plethora of so-called Churches has drawn most men away from Catholic life and practice. The ‘Protestant’ churches are full enough of fine men, good men who read scripture but they are very like faces at the restaurant window, reading the menu, while Catholics are inside eating the meal.

    MGTOW need Grace. They cannot walk alone. They need sustenance. They cannot find that Grace or benefit from it by themselves. They need the Sacraments.

    They need Confession. Men talk to one another but guardedly. They need to learn how to open themselves in Confession. When they are open to God they will see themselves and their own failing and be able to correct them. IT is perhaps a ‘skillset’ they need. rather than being exhorted in a boot camp.

    They need the Eucharest. Not a fake one as in Protestant churches where few even believe that the Eucharest IS Christ. Of course the protestant pastor or even High Church C of E priest does not have the divine authority to turn the water and wine and the Host into Christ. It is a play act. Grace does not flow through a play-act.

    MGTOW and MRAs also need to understand that even a feminist, a Mulsim, a Communist – all enemies – are also made in God’s Image and Likeness. We ‘Christian MRAs’ must guard against such hubris as denigrates them. Few MRAs have the spiritual strength to ‘kill the enemy’ without hating him or her. The enemy is is the evil within, not the person without. So we must learn to Love the Chanty Blix’s of the world and the Mohammed al Dullshits who are currently the ‘Roman Occupation’ army assailing us. Resist them we must, their evils, but we must offer kindness.

    The model we also have is of the soldier. We must be soldiers. The Roman soldier at the centre of the Mass who showed complete Faith is a model. The soldier who went to the Crusade is a model. These were doing their ‘day to day stuff’ in response to their circumstance. But both were informed, enlightened, even by a dimmed light. We cannot avoid the day to day unless we become Hermits.

    That is an option, by the way.

    Another thing the ordinary MRA can do is find others who are MGTOW and go together. That is what drove the Monastic life. We NEED Monastries in our current world. God is at the centre of the Monastic life and the monkish man can find comradeship, enterprise and achievment all centres upon God and in fine manly company.

    Others, like yourself, can do a fine job informing, challenging and encouraging, as you do with this blog. As indeed I do too.

    Reply
    • Thank you for your input – a lot of thoughts and feelings that I share.

      Likewise I do not see Christ speaking against the pagan and even said “give Caesar what belongs to Caesar.” He ordered no sort of rebellion against government, but told us to respond in love to the outright sinner.

      The ones he did speak against constantly, though, were the religious leaders of his day for various reasons involving missing the message of the true law of God. Likewise, as we recognize the corruption of the world, that is fine and good–quite good, in fact. But as believers the answer is building what is right as we leave behind what is on the wide path. MGTOW is a terrific recognition of the world’s fickle sense of justice and that the morality of man–therefore, seek the unmoving, all-powerful God and be faithful to Him, since if we draw near to Him, He will draw near to us.

      As glad as I am that MGTOW consists of men receiving the wake-up call and identifying religious hypocrisy (failure to love, as the Pharisees did in Jesus’ time), the next constructive move is to draw all the more closer to God away from the world.

      Reply
  2. Veritas

     /  March 25, 2016

    We get “Men Step Up” or other accountability groups that are willfully ignorant of men’s realities, lack any sort of restorative and protective spirit towards men, and consequently, just don’t come across like they even care about the men to whom they “minister.” It’s the boot camp school of thought at best, and at worst, it’s a loveless demonization, condemnation, and an atmosphere that reduces men to performance objects (in great part, of course, for women).

    Perfectly put. I’ve been saying this for years.

    As for the other commenter’s idea that we need to bow the knee to Rome, no thanks! Rome’s religion is not Christ’s way and “The Queen of Heaven” is an abomination.

    Reply
  3. seventiesjason

     /  May 1, 2016

    I am Christian first, and been a MGTOW long before there was a term for it and long before I was a Christian.

    Churches:

    *Telling all the men who are IN church NOW to “grow some / man-up / move out of mommy’s basement / quit playing video games / get a real job / be like the real men in this church who are married” and other variations of this need to stop in the CORPORATE worship setting during the sermon now. Doing this in front of the women getting “thunderous applause” from them and getting them to “laugh” is hurting and harming badly. Single men don’t stay where they are not needed. They don’t.

    I have been in church and a Christian now for eight years. I have yet to meet ONE grown man in church who is living in mommy’s basement. I have been to evangelical seminars in different parts of the USA……..notta one. Not one single Christian man have I met who is single and who lives in mommy’s basement and plays video games all day. It’s a lie. It needs to stop. Man-Up is a term used by the WORLD with disdain and it causes snickers and its meant to be a joke…..yet churches use this term and don’t have a clue. It shows how insulated the church is from the world plainly. There was a time when the church in general had a better pulse on the world. It no longer does. It *thinks* it does. But it doesn’t. There is a time and place for ‘real talk’ with men of God, but in a setting like this…..totally belittling and done on purpose in front of the women to make the pastor look like he’s the “hip-happening guy, the real man, the hot-shot, the big-monkey in the room”

    Single men won’t put up with this, and will want NOTHING to do with a church

    *When the talk about porn happens, the church IGNORES the fact that porn use by women is growing 10,000x faster in the market and the world with women. It is never discussed in church. Porn is a man’s problem. Church, start calling out sin. Period. Where one gender gets a “pass” and the other gets a “smackdown” for their sinful nature is driving men away. It’s blatant now, and it needs to stop.

    *Walk deeper. This will take WORK. It will take TIME. Satan has such a grip on the minds and hearts in this world, pastors can no longer “be tough” for a minute and ooze masculinity while single men in their flocks are never helped. They are not being TAUGHT how to be men. Just yelled at. Remember, most men today came from homes run by a single-mother. taught in school by women, dealt with a female-centric teaching in college. Many have managers / bosses that are women in their jobs. Yet…..in church, we expect them to all suddenly be “manly” or ooze attraction. We expect them to just know everything. This will take A TON of work, but it’s easier to do nothing while they slowly leave and hear the weekly lament from women “how come the guys don’t like church?” Time to look in the mirror church.

    *I want the snarky remarks by Christian women to stop in church. “he couldn’t dress himself if it wasn’t for me” and always some light “joke” made at the expense of men during announcements. It’s not Christ-like. It’s not Holy and it’s no longer funny……it hasn’t been funny in a long time. Stop it please.

    This is the basics. Sure, we can debate other issues or other things as they come up…….but men need a place to at least feel valued and welcome…..and if a man can’t even get that in a church???????????????? Well, it shows me how far we strayed

    Reply
    • Thanks so much for your comments Jason. And I think you’re right on all counts.

      As we’ve talked many times and see so many similar things (like more and more men are), I believe all of this is reason why it is absolutely crucial for us to start building something anew among ourselves. “If you want something done . . .” as they say. 😉

      The picture you’re talking about, that you observe, surely tells us many things, but one thing I hear very clearly from this is that – despite the modern churches’ contempt for men – it DOES need them. They implicitly confess, loud and clear, that they need men, yet they refuse to love them. It’s that sentiment that will echo and testify against them loudly against themselves on the Day of Judgment: they know that men are in need. They know what a human being needs in terms of nurturing, protective, restorative, supportive ministry. Yet despite the warning shot that the strength of its men is fading, to their own detriment, they refuse to act with love in ways that they know full-well to do for women as a human being needs.

      That bears on the point even more: today’s Christian men must, must, MUST band together and fortify, and today’s women need us to do so just as much as we need each other, because women DO need men to be in strong shape for them (again, as their own griping testifies). It needs to see the end of tolerating women’s sins against men, including any sitting on the sidelines and a failure to contribute to a solution. We are suffering a 60%+ majority demographic of the church that does not value the well-being of a man like their own. I go a step farther than you, perhaps, because I get the feeling that these women care how a man is hurt – they don’t. They see their own interests as something that absolutely overrides the innate value of a man. We know they wouldn’t tolerate being treated the way men are treated (and neglected), let alone support it.

      I think there are some women who genuinely follow Christ and, again, they absolutely need us as men to be in strong shape. As I’ve mentioned previously, I’m VERY interested in avenues that may cultivate better empathy between men and our TRUE sisters in Christ (without tolerating the sin) in love. Some may be brought to repentance for the condition of their hearts. And hey, we can learn to love women as Christ does all the more, in mercy and in brotherly love.

      Honestly, taking a break from seeing the opposite sex as marriage material is a big part of it. We are spiritual family that endures forever, with marriage as a parenthesis as a situation for this life.

      I pray that the Lord helps us build the church in these trying times. I believe the spiritual protection of men is the most important issue of our era, because (as it’s so clear) women depend on us, whether they like our godly methods or not. Currently, they are not making things very doable in the situations of today’s churches.

      Reply
  4. Pedat Ebediyah

     /  May 12, 2016

    I saw your response to Jeff Riddle on his page…it came directly after mine.

    You were much more charitable and kind that I was, and I admire you for that.

    These men do not believe in headship…nor the godly order of the home. If they did, they would be raising Titus 2 and Proverbs 31 women in their flock.

    They aren’t raising or discipling women suitable of marriage to a devout man (of any age) in Christ. Whey they start doing that, then maybe we’ll give them a second look..

    Reply
  5. Pedat:

    Thanks for your comment and for stopping by!

    I definitely struggle to be gracious to all in Christ “mercy, mixed with fear” (Jude 1:23). My outlook on pastors today is that they are mostly figureheads of people’s collective will more than real leaders. It’s like any business, like a TV show that’s run through some algorithm not for its quality, but for how well it will sell. Most of today’s churches are simply products of consumerism at work.

    2 Timothy 4:3
    For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,

    You’re right that they are not (noticeably) teaching Titus 2 or Proverbs 31 women because that’s not what causes women to fill the pews, as well as men who are cower away from standing for the truth and love their wives more than they love Christ (Luke 14:26)–that is, such that they fear their wives’ disapproval as many women/wives prove to be in total rebellion to God.

    How far gone are these pastors themselves? It’s hard to say, and the situation varies, I think. I think that some are something like the “rich men” who have a hard time entering the kingdom of heaven because their situation is so cozy, and standing for the truth jeopardizes the size of their following and (consequently) their bank accounts.

    For the rest of us, and for our walk with Christ, we need to be men who are like Jeremiah and other prophets and/or people who have the integrity to follow a prophet despite his poverty and unpopularity–one or the two. (Luke 6:26)

    I want to see the Christian manosphere become a place of building something new and God-honoring and my blog is my effort to be as much a part of that as I can (I lack an abundance of time to put into it, but I do my best as the Lord leads). As you saw me say, issues concerning women’s sins against men (especially) are a HUGE open door left open for the Devil to do harm to men just as Scripture shows us can be the case. But, I want to explore that in a healthy way, entailing justice and mercy and building a brotherhood.

    Hey, it’s my latest catch-phrase: Christian men are called to love ISIS terrorists and the average modern woman, right? 😉 But we definitely need the Lord to help us cover the bases of protecting ourselves from others’ sin as well as extending mercy in the ways that the Lord does. God willing, great things will come about with today’s men AND women!

    I hope you might be encouraged to stick around a little. 😉 I pray that we walk with Christ and handle all things in a God-honoring way, taking every thought captive, in our love for God, ourselves, and others as ourselves.

    Maybe I can recommend an article to check out.

    Blessings to you, and thanks again!

    SDCM

    Reply
  6. Great article.

    I can see that MGTOWs want to be heard. Briefly, I would plug that it tests the faith to remember that God hears when no one else does, cares when no one else cares, and the world is no match for His power. Keeping all that in mind, I pray that Christian MGTOWs will continue to turn to the Lord.

    I think MGTOW types want to be heard before they get to the end of their philosophical system. MGTOW is a way of living that one eventually abandons. It’s the metaphorical ladder that gets you to the vantage-point you seek, and then you kick it away.

    Best,

    Boxer

    Reply
    • Boxer,

      I believe I know what you mean. MGTOW can identify cultural baggage and relieve some bewilderment and get you above the mess to gain awareness. It can therefore be a step toward freedom from that unconscious bondage. It doesn’t go far beyond that – as you refer to “kick it away,” the subculture of MGTOW is “hands-off” after doing so.

      For me, the answer was clear to seek higher justice and higher purpose which I find in Christ. I was Christian before that, but my awareness led me to a new level in my connection to God who can set us free from the sin of the world and ourselves, bringing us toward new levels of freedom, purpose, fulfillment, and enlightenment.

      Reply
  7. Reblogged this on v5k2c2 and commented:
    MGTOW for Christian Brothers.

    Reply
  8. Kurt

     /  September 19, 2017

    I got out of church for the male bashing I witnessed..glad to have came across your website , I plan on going thru your whole site , little by little .

    Reply
    • Thanks for stopping by and I hope what you read is a blessing. The Lord loves you and other men, and today (as men) we need alternative, Scripture-based formations of our identities in Christ (our value as men for whom Christ died), as His beloved children, worth nurturing and fighting to protect. In our era, we definitely have a fight on our hands to do so – making sure we don’t allow ourselves to be defined by the man-hating culture of today’s churches and we simply cannot afford to wait to do so.

      Blessings in Christ – He is strong and faithful as our Lord and Savior.

      Reply
  9. “We get “Men Step Up” or other accountability groups that are willfully ignorant of men’s realities, lack any sort of restorative and protective spirit towards men, and consequently, just don’t come across like they even care about the men to whom they “minister.” It’s the boot camp school of thought at best, and at worst, it’s a loveless demonization, condemnation, and an atmosphere that reduces men to performance objects (in great part, of course, for women).”

    Oh, how I have lived this very thing out and suffered horridly from it.

    Reply
  10. Given the rarified nature of our simpaticoness, I thought it justified to present this blatant self-promo to you and your audience. It indeed may be of interest to someone in your audience. Someday soon I gotta start blogging and getting the word out about this and others, but I am only one guy and I have to finish a couple more books first, which I am feverishly doing:

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1548406228/ref=mp_s_a_1_14?ie=UTF8&qid=1508623858&sr=1-14&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=mgtow#immersive-view_1508623869592

    Reply

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